Baked Beans Are Cooked in the Tin?! Behind the Barcode - Paul Hesketh

[Music] Hi there and welcome to Author Conversations. As usual, I'm Chris Dabbs and today on Author Conversations I'm joined by Paul Hesketh. Now, Paul is an entrepreneur with more than four decades of experience in business, including agriculture, corporate governance and investment. His new book, Behind the Barcode, begins with something most of us do without giving a second thought to it. We walk into a supermarket and we pick up familiar products from the shelves without thinking about it. But, Paul argues that behind those everyday barcodes are extra ordinary stories of invention, accident, science, ambition, trade, rivalry and sometimes outright scandal.

I can't wait to hear about the scandal, I've got to say. But from the origins of familiar foods to the businesses that turn them into global brands, the book asks us to look again at what is actually sitting in our kitchen cupboards. So, I've been looking through my kitchen cupboards and I'm a bit concerned that I like chili too much. But I'm sure we're going again to much more depth than that. Paul, welcome to author conversations. It's lovely to have you on. Thank you. It's good to be here. Excellent.

Fantastic. Well, let's get straight into the questions. You've spent much of your working life in business and you also have a background in agriculture, right? You know, what made you decide that the story is behind everyday food was something that, A, you wanted to investigate and B, right about? Was there one particular product or story that started the whole thing off? Not really. It was just a total lack of real knowledge. When you're going to a supermarket or you're going to a local store and you're asking for maybe a bit of advice about a condiment or a food or what, or, or, or, you know, what, sort of what matches was there's very little coming back.

There's not a lot of information and the more that I looked at it and looked at the people that were sort of behind the serving counters and stacking that they've got really no idea and you ask some basic questions and they just sort of shrugged the shoulders. So, I felt that there was a real gap for people to understand about everyday food and and and where they come from and and and things that we eat every day. Yeah, just no, that's a really good point, isn't it? I mean, you go into, I don't know, set up a deli or something like that and you would expect to have some advice.

I wouldn't, I'm paying on, sorry, sorry, sorry, just got to get sort of just got some noise going on. I'll do that part again. Yeah, no, I understand that completely actually. I mean, if you think about it, if you go into a deli, I guess you're expecting, you know, people behind the counter to have some knowledge about what it is that they're selling and that they help you with purchasing something that you hadn't bought before by giving you a taste sterile or something like that, right? But obviously, if you go into a supermarket, that's it, isn't it?

It's a commodity, you're buying a tin, you're buying something, you're not really going to get any advice. It's a good point to make actually. So, I mean, do you find that, do you, do you find that as well? I mean, going into a deli or somewhere specialist, like a specialist wine shop or something like that is, is the only place to get this sort of advice? Yeah, I'm, yes, but it's even more, it's even more basic than that. I mean, you know, people just, you know, you, you, you ask people and they say, well, what's the difference between a German and a marmalade?

And they go, I'm, I'm, they just look at you like, I've no idea, they're the same. Well, no, they're not the same. And, you know, where this comes from, and you know, where that comes from. And they're really are clueless. And, and, and, and I'm not talking about products that we don't use every day. I'm just talking about basic absolute products that are in our shell, on our shelves, in our co-boots that are sold. In fact, the products, the basic products that I took for the book were from, were from from the local express store.

So on, on, you know, every high street, on every corner, almost as if there's a, there's a, there's a, a food shop, whether, whether it's an express shop or a local grocery store. And it's that type of food that I wanted to concentrate on, because, because the, the lack of understanding of, of the source and how it ends up on their table is, is minimal. Yeah, all right. Okay. So you're talking about kind of like a corner shop, or not necessarily even a corner shop, I suppose, but just a, a shop that's selling food as a commodity, more than anything else.

I mean, do you, do you really think that they should have an idea of where all of the, that their stock comes from? And, and what it is really? Or, you know, I think probably at the moment anyway, most people just expect to go in there by a kind of beans and walk straight back out again. Yeah, but exactly. And, and I think that the should, and when they find out the sort of surprised and, and, and, and sort of a little bit. So, I mean, you know, beans is a really good example, because I say to people on the baked beans side, general baked beans are cooked in the tin.

And this is a look at with a blank expression, they go, no. I said, yeah, so they put them in and then, and then they seal the tin and then they cook them. I think they think about it, it makes absolute sense because it's helping with the bacteria, and it's helping to preserve the tin and the food that's in it. And a lot of food is done that way. But they've got no idea. And when they find that out, it's sort of the other smile on the face as I, I never knew that. And yet they've probably been eating beans for the last 40 years of the life.

No, exactly, exactly. So, I mean, the central idea of the book is that something, as ordinary as a supermarket shelf, can hide some extraordinary history. I mean, I've seen a few programs over the years where they look back at food adulteration, back in the Victorian era and all that sort of thing. It's a bit scary. But when you began researching it, I mean, how different was the reality from what you thought you already knew about our current foods? Yeah, a lot. I mean, just, again, it was standard foods from the local express store that you will find in your kitchen today.

And, you know, you take tea, for instance, and you start to understand about what we're to, you know, we take it for granted and we have our tea bags. But going back, you know, that was a big secret of China's Alta Mekti. And it was only massive companies like the East India Company. You know, they ended up employing the services of a botanist to go behind the lines, if you like, and sneak into China and steal the plants and get the plants out and also understand the process for making tea. All that happened with big business and espionage and, and, and, and, you know, underhanded tactics to actually get that out.

And once they got it, then it became a, a product that was available around the world. But, you know, most of the, most of the foods have got history that is intriguing like that to understand actually how, are we just taking them for granted? Oh, absolutely. I mean, the other one that's like that is a pepper. Is that right? Yeah, it's something about, you know, just the normal ground that we grind as pepper. I think there was an issue again with, with one of those huge companies back in, back in those days.

Yeah, I mean, it's day it was worth more than gold and the Portuguese and the Spanish and the refiting for the rights of it. I mean, it was big business. I mean, it was the, they were the, they were the Apple, Apple computers of the day or, or, or, or, or the, or the Tesla's. They were the big companies. They had the power and, and, and, and they were the rivalry. A big rivalry, you know, was the other on arm is, in fact, East India company had a bigger army than the British Empire. I mean, it was at that sort of scale.

But yeah, certainly, Spice is big, big business and, and, and, and made the fortunes of many people. I think that's incredible. And as you say, if they were like the, the biggest companies around, and then, as you said, the Spanish and the Portuguese, they all sort of got involved with all of that, didn't they? Is he quite incredible? When you think about these companies had their own armies and things like that, but, you know, hang on, let's, I'm getting a bit too geeky here. So, I love this sort of stuff.

But obviously, you're looking at the surprising origins of, or, of food that millions of us buy as we've said, you know, without thinking about them whatsoever. But which food actually surprised you the most then? Which origin story, if you like, surprised you the most? And there's a few, I'm really good tales in, in the book about some basic foods that we take for granted. I mean, I still love the, the 1957 Panorama BBC documentary where David Dumbled, they became on and, and, and, and, and flick to a, a field in Italy, where they were doing the, the, the, the spaghetti harvest.

And it's a famous film. I mean, you can, you can see it on, on YouTube. And there were people picking spaghetti off, off the branches of trees. And, and, and, and it was introduced as, you know, the, the spaghetti harvest has begun. We're going over to a, a farm over, over in Italy. And this is how, I'll, they're now collecting the spaghetti. And, and they believed it. Thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of UK residents believed it. Rangob saying, how can I buy a spaghetti tree and, and all sorts of things.

So, it, it, you know, those, that's just an, an intriguing story. I love, I love the, Liam Perrin's, the, the source that we, that we have with our, with our meals that, you know, that was, that was a couple of guys. The, and there's all sorts into wine with that because the story goes is, is that some, some governor from Bengal that had come back to the UK had got this secret recipe. And, and he wanted them to duplicate it and to carry on making it in the UK. The problem is that no one, no one actually knows who it is.

And there was no record of this, of this, of this, of this governor. And they feel that that might have been made up. So, they feel that the mind of, of stolen the recipe from, from somewhere. But then the, the, the, they made it and they put it together and they put it in a, in a big vat. And it tasted horrendous. And they just thought, we got it wrong. It was a, okay, it was a good try. We had it, we had it, got it. And it was just wrong. Put it in the salad and ignored it for six months. And then sort of six months later, they go down there and they said, well, we'll just have a little taste.

I needed fermented. And that's where the taste came from. So, there's, there's, there's good stories like that about the foods. The, the, the sort of just had a little bit of intrigue to, to what's on the, what's on the breakfast table? You must have heard in your research that there was like one story that you just didn't believe and you just thought to yourself, well, that simply just can't be true. But then it, and it turned out to be true. Or maybe one that turned out to be completely false.

I mean, share with one of those with us. Things that surprised me were things like silly foods, like pot noodles. And, and just the way that the, the, the gentleman, the sort of research didn't put that together and made the first pot noodle by adding water. But just the size that food became, and the global reach that it had. I mean, they are served billions of times a year in the world, in, in Japan and China. And, and, and clever marketing, you know, that they've worked it out. So they put it in a pot and, and that you don't need a dish on the put a fork with it as well or a spoon.

So it's literally food on the go. Everybody was working together on it to make it what it is. And it was just interested to see how the market is. I'd actually, I'd actually got to that stage. And, and, and, and really looked at this product to say, this is, with us a big niche here, a world, a world, a world niche here. And they're right because it's an incredible selling food. And that, you know, with, with, with Chris, I mean, we all tech Chris for granted. And, and the story is that there was some, there was a big gentleman in his restaurant serving some, some, some chips that were were soggy on, and, and, and the guy complained and he wanted them Chris.

So he went back in and he sliced the potatoes very thinly. And, and, and, and fried him quickly and he made him crisp and, and sort of the Chris was invented. But that wasn't the real story. The real story was the problem is that they couldn't get him to anybody because they didn't know how to keep him fresh. And they didn't know how to package them. And they were greasy. So they put him in a bag and he put that bag on a shell. And, and, you know, within hours it was looking, it was looking like it was falling off the back of a lorry.

So it was all the, it was all the very clever foil on the very clever packaging. And then to actually fill the bags with nitrogen as well. So it, it actually gives you that bulk and it keeps them fresh. All that came in from, from the scientific departments of, of the food people and the food processes. So yeah, when, when you're looking at things and you're like, I never thought about that. I didn't realize there was so much went into that food. And it was stories like that that when you're doing the research, you sort of think, you know, well, well done, you know, you've, you've got a product, you worked hard at it, you met things happen.

And lots of people had lots of, the contributions are to, to, to, to make it what it is today for sure. And then become a brand that's worth billions, right? I mean, you know, this is the thing. So there's always, you know, we've, we've got so many questions nowadays about food and about whether they're healthy, whether it's not healthy, whether it's, you know, in their consumers interest to eat. Then you mentioned pot noodles earlier on. But of course, yeah, that's massive across the world. And we, we call them pot noodles here in the UK, don't we?

But in other places, they call cup noodles or whatever it is. I know they've got different things here. Sure. Yeah. And a lot, and a number of, a number of things do, you know, we two big cities here and it's a different name in Australia. And yeah, I mean, and the other thing, just do you think that came out of the research is often the people that are credited with inventing for want of a better word or finding or creating the product didn't benefit. It was other people that benefited. They are the run out of money or they didn't have the resources to go into production or big business took over or somebody bought the mouse or whatever.

I mean, the, you know, from memory that the Coca-Cola story is, you know, there was, there was a farm assistant, he got injured in the war and he was concocting things to help him. And, but it's not him that made Coca-Cola what it is today. It was, it was another name, another person that actually saw the marketing potential, saw what, saw the product and realised that it could be a well product. And that, there's a good line in that constantly through the book of people that names that we forgot that were, I mean, we know hines and we know, we know names of lightly unparriors and other people that put the name to things and they and they'd been maintained by the marketing today.

But many, many cases, the people that actually formulated them would came up with the ideas sort of lost to history. And that happens so often, doesn't it? I remember watching the, I can't remember what the film's called about McDonald's, you know, the history of that. Yeah, and I've seen it and that's very good because yeah, and you know, he realised it wasn't about the burgers. I mean, you know, I've always, I've known that as a fact of life that if some, you say what, what is McDonald's as a company?

And they said, well, it's a, it's a fast food company because that's actually not as a property company. McDonald's wealth is the real estate is the property. They know there's not many, there's no burgers on the balance sheet. They have to make burgers from the property, but they're actual, the wealth and their assets are property based. And that guy that played, great actor that played that, I'd saw that opportunity. He saw that. He understood that it wasn't about wrapping the burgers and get it.

That was all part of the service, but the value of the business was somewhere else. Yeah, it was a good film. Forgot what he's called myself. Oh, yeah. Oh gosh, yeah, we'll get there in a minute. But I mean, yeah, I worked in McDonald's and I was very young and I loved it. I have to say, I completely loved working there for a while. And so when that happened at the end, you know, to the crocs, the people that said it up, I had a bit of a tear in my eye. I thought, oh, no, that's a bit sad, didn't it?

But you're quite right, though. This is what big business is about, isn't it? I always remember the other one that was very intriguing was, I don't know if you've pictured it up, but it was the story about Jaffa cake. I don't know if you just saw that, but it was really good. There's no that payable on a biscuit, but there is that payable on a deluxe biscuit. Don't ask me why. That's HMRC's problem. And they, they, they, they realize, hey, somewhere I see decided that vitties are not paid VAT on a Jaffa, on what they call the Jaffa cake, which you should have done because they, JMRC said it's a biscuit with chocolate on, and therefore it was vatable and you've not paid that.

So they sent them a bill for tens of millions of pounds and said, you owe us this money. So the court case and it became a court case and the argument was, is the Jaffa cake a biscuit or is it a Jaffa cake? A cake. And they went to court, and they matched the bait and brought one into court. And the bottom rule it was very interesting because because because vitties said it's a cake. It's always been a cake and therefore with cakes there's no VAT. There's only VAT on chocolate biscuits and it's not a biscuit.

And it was interesting that the bottom line at the end of the day is the rules that it was a cake because there is a difference and the difference is that when a biscuit goes stale, it goes soft. And when a cake goes stale, it goes hard. And a Jaffa cake, when it stale goes hard, and they won the ruling. But so that was just something interesting that came out of the research. Now that's a great story. I love that. I was keeping my mouth closed, but when you were talking about how I was supposed to jump in because yeah, that's fascinating.

A cake goes hard, right? And that's it. They argued it's not a cake because it sold as a biscuit. It sold on the biscuit lines. It sold on the biscuit shells. If you go to the biscuit aisle, you will find a Jaffa cake. It's definitely from H and Y C's point of view. It's definitely a biscuit. And they said, no, no, it's a cake. Anyway, on the ruling wall. Yeah. So Jaffa cake. Exactly. Yeah. Well, there we are. You see, now what have the great food companies understood then about? Do you think branding and marketing that we've just had a quick chat about that?

But you know, that this branding and the marketing of everyday products to become, you know, global industries across things, you mentioned something along the lines of, you know, the nitrogen that's put into packaging nowadays that enables it to be, you know, moved around below the place. Tell us a bit about that. Tell us a bit about how there needs to be that this kind of in order to become global, there needs to be science behind food, which, you know, I guess is a bit of a shame in a way. It's lots that the sciences is everywhere.

You're not going to create the foods that we have today without science. The chemistry departments, the scientists in the food in the food companies are absolutely key to make it preserve, to extend its shelf life of the foods that we have to make them, you know, to make them fit for us to eat. The scientist playing absolute role in that. There's no question whatsoever. There's quirks with the nitrogen, with the crisp packages, but generally speaking, wherever you look, whether it's pasteurised milk, or whether it's longevity of condiments in jars and in tins, where the cooking is done within the tins and within the jar.

All of that is from the scientists. There are behind the scenes and making sure that it's as fresh as it can be, and it's up to the food standards. So big business plays a big part. And that's really what goes back to what I just a point we just talked about is where many of the people that invented these things in came, what were the ideas? She just didn't have the resources to set that bottling plant up, or the manufacturing facilities for the money that's required to set them up to such a scale.

And you should we should take her out soft to that because without them, we wouldn't have the variety that we have today. I think that this is the other point that brings us to, you know, sometimes I think that maybe more often than not, we're actually just buying the brand. Are we sometimes do you think buying the story and the brand as much as the food itself? I mean, I can think of certain energy drinks that are basically brands that people just buy into in terms of lifestyles and things like that.

Yeah, I mean, I didn't really research the power of the marketing side and what the marketing, what the marketers do. And I suspect that's got its own problems because yeah, because they can sell anything at the end of the day and they can entice younger people or whoever at one age group to buy their products, the very clever that we do picture, you know, we for some reason, you know, if you ask people about porridge, they're related to Scotland. And porridge is not for, you know, porridge is from Ults and okay, Ults do grow in Scotland and they may porridge there, but there's no other deep affiliation with that kind, but with that country, but yeah, you know, people have this mental thing about porridge and Scotland and KILTS and fighting birds and living on mountain sides and things like that.

So yeah, it's all clever marketing. But I also think that the marketing plays a big role on the company's player big role in maybe not always attaining it or maybe being successful, but you know, helping with sustainability and the sources of the food. And I'm thinking particularly of things like, you know, tin tuner and tin fish and the way that that cattle are bred in vast amounts for beef, particularly in America and China. And you know, it's good that that's looked at and that's monitored because it's very easy to overproduce, it's very easy to overfish.

And all of this needs to be looked at and controlled. And again, you know, I think there is, there, there, there, there, big business has a, has a responsibility. And I think generally speaking, they're pretty good at looking at it. Yeah, and sure, nowadays rather than, you know, in the old days, I guess, you know, where the dodo was hunted to extinction, that amongst others, right? So, you know, I mean, so talking about the business side, as we're, we're kind of running out of time, unfortunately, yeah, we could definitely talk rages about this.

But, you know, given your own background as an entrepreneur, I mean, did researching these companies and products change your sort of view of what makes a successful business or perhaps they just clarify that that for you, or perhaps what can go wrong when a company becomes maybe too powerful or something like that? I think, I think from a business point of view, I, I, I, I realized that, you know, if you suddenly come up with a new invention today with a new food today, you know, it's going to take big money to get that to market.

Nothing happens overnight. You're going to need investment, you're going to need somebody to actually make that happen on, on, on, on, on, with production and facilities. So, you know, bring your new foods today, think, now I can come up with it. I've got a better idea than Kellogg's or I can do a better deal than baked beans or whatever. You know, that, you know, it's a long haul and it's going to take you lots of money, and lots of effort to get there. So, you know, getting, bringing new products to that array, and getting them on the shelves of the supermarkets is a long haul for anybody, that, that's a fight.

So, so yeah, that, it was, it was interesting to see how, I know, when you actually look deep into it, there's a lot of big companies on a lot of brands, you know, like Mars, for instance, Mars don't just make Mars buys, you know, Mars are into pet food and all sorts of things. I mean, you know, that's a private company still to this day. What, what, what people know very little about, if truth was known, a billion, billion pound enterprise, that's, that's, that's family-owned and family-controlled, but they have lots of products that you would never even think of, and that's the case with, with, with lots of conglomerates.

So, yeah, I think that from an economic point of view, from a business point of view, was good to find that out and do a bit more research. And the big names are always the, the Heinz names, are there, the McDonald's names are there, and, and, and things like that. But, but certainly, from my, from my experience in business, not an easy route to bring a new product to market. Exactly. I mean, I think you're, you've got, you're, you're, you're working with an alcoholic brand or something like that, aren't you?

At the moment? Yeah, I was involved. I did start a, a drinks company producing spirits, a rom vodka and, and gin, with a bit of a tweet because I, I actually put CBD with it. So, that was something that I was involved in, but I've actually, I've actually sold that now. So, that's, that's actually gone. But, but, you know, I'm looking around for new products and new opportunities. But, yeah, I think it was just an interest from my recultural background, which was actually in, in beef and sheep production, many, many years ago.

But it's sort of, I'm understanding and, and I look for where it comes from that, that sort of prompting me to write the book. And then, of course, you do, as you know, you do research and, and, and you do, and you do, you know, you do your own fact-finding of what's happening and lots of other stories come out. Yeah, and then, no, totally. All right. So, penultimate question then. So, after looking through all of this and doing all of this research, investigating the hidden life of familiar foods, I mean, is there one everyday product that you'll personally never quite look at in the same way again, whether that's because of fun things or something that was really, you thought, that's a big thing.

Sorry, and it's really boring. And I've mentioned it, but the one with people talk about it. And I just, because I just know that no one knows. And I go, do you know, they make baked beans? Do you know? They go, well, they cook them in a tin. I said, no, no, no, the problem in the tin, and they cook them. And it's just the expression on people's face, like, real. Yeah. They cook baked beans in the tin. Yeah. And boring, not everybody has the same as the same mannerisms and expressions. And they go, it's just ridiculous.

Why didn't you know that? You must have eaten a thousand tins in your life. Why don't you know? So, yeah, it's a bit boring, but that is the one I sort of fall back on. Well, yeah, no, it's not boring because it's true, right? And I mean, you know, it is for, and I can imagine that everyone that you say that to probably does go, well, that doesn't make any sense. I thought tin's explode if you boil them. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So if people take away just one message from behind the barcode, right?

What do you hope that they understand about the food that they eat every day at least? Well, I think I sort of studied my summary, you know, hopefully they will have a better knowledge of where it comes from. And that, to my mind, fees itself back into sustainability. And they must think about, you know, where it comes from. And particularly with the tuner and the fish and those types of products and the beef, I think it's a good thing that people give some thought to that. But at the end of the day, you know, hopefully it just becomes conversation, good conversational quality around the dinner table or breakfast table that people talk a little bit more rather than just buying it or running the back because it's so easy.

That's what we do. We don't see a cat. We don't see a lomeray you. We don't see these products growing in the fields. We just buy the package and open them and put the milk on it or boil them or fry them or cook them. So I just think that I want to just open up more interest about what we all eat every day. That was one thing. And I think that's going to be something that will definitely happen with more people just hearing about your book Paul. You know, it's been fascinating talking to you today, Paul Hesketh.

And thank you very much for joining me on author conversations. Behind the barcode, by the way, Tixen was the most familiar things in our cupboards, just to remind you, and supermarkets, and reveals the history, the science, the business, and sometimes the extraordinary human stories hiding behind them, you know, like all that history from the East India companies and things like that. Paul, it's been a real pleasure talking to you. Can you just let us know what your socials are so that people can get in touch with you and where they can find your book and all of that good stuff?

Thank you. It's obviously available on Amazon in hard Microsoft back and on Kindle. On my website is PaulHesketh.com so you can go to read more about the book before buying it. Have a look at some reviews. I also sort of take it to answer my next one this in the pipeline. So, so we can you can keep up to date with what I'm doing. Okay, well, and what's the next book? My next book is Beyond the Blueprint. And that is about how everyday items that we take for granted, not through, but everyday items from frying pans to teflon to to penicillin to the basic things that we take for granted, is how they came about by default.

They were they were all found, everything that's covered in my book, were all found and invented where people were looking for something else. They were not they were not sat in the lab looking for to find superglue. They were not sat in the lab trying to find a thing called teflon. They were not sat there were doing something else and through mistakes and through quirky things, you know, they were not trying to invent a microwave to cook food in. It just saw happens that we're dealing with microwaves to something else and one of the guys that was dealing with it, noticed that the chocolate these pockets started to melt and they got no idea why.

So it's about items like that. Fantastic. I mean, I can't wait. And hopefully we'll talk about that again in the future. Fantastic. I'm really looking forward to hopefully talking to you about that book as well and we can go from there. But Paul Hesketh, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you very much for educating me as well and thank you listeners and viewers for watching author conversations. And I'll catch you guys in the next one and in the meantime, let Paul know down the comments what you think about food and industrial farming and industrial processes and all of the history behind the food that we take for granted.

Paul Hesketh, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you. If you enjoyed this conversation, you can watch more author conversations here. [MUSIC]